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magnatone
Forum Full Member


Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 4388
Location: N/A
 
Re:Shills and Astroturf: Addkisson
Sunday, April 23 2017 @ 07:59 PM CDT

Quote by: chikoppi
Quote by: Daugrin

Keep hating people. Destroy those messengers. It's truly all ya got.
Macjams is the perfect platform for your life, no life but yours permitted here...

Why, here you go so more? Resist! Keep it going...

You don't write, you don't play modern music, you don't create anything, so you come here to MJ to recycle, to ensure your delusional world view is supported...musicians one and all, and the instrument of choice, the performance most necessary is- hate. Take a bow.



You're the one who started this thread to preach your opinion. When other people participate by challenging that opinion or by voicing their own you condemn them as "haters," "shills," "delusional," or otherwise attempt to delegitimize and exclude them.



Quote by: chikoppi

Now who was it, that once said...

Quote by: DAUGRIN
Have fun! Post material and join in the conversation. Treat others in the manner you yourself expect to be treated.

If you come here to hate. In other words, simply come to MacJams to ensure your values are trumpeted in the forums above the views of people who do not agree with you, I hope you will change.




my most recent song: "First Light (solo piano)"
MotherofMeursault
Forum Full Member


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 380
Location: , United States
 
Re:Shills and Astroturf: Addkisson
Monday, April 24 2017 @ 11:02 AM CDT

Quote by: chikoppi
Quote by: MotherofMeursault
Facts and details are indeed important, but it's often only in strictly circumscribed circumstances that the facts are even knowable. The information we're presented with by news organizations is rarely so tidy. And when the news brings us tales of various political maneuverings, there is often a lot of information but very few facts. We are forced to compare the information with our past similar experience, and pick the most likely path to 'truth'. The actions of the news organizations themselves are part of the calculus: the John Podesta emails exposing the journalists who were on board with HRC's messaging drove many to reasonably question the 'facts' those people were disseminating.
I guess the simplest way to say it is to say that news organizations are not in the fact business; they're in the infotainment business. You can glean the basic facts by consuming a variety of media; all the rest is spin.


I agree with your second point. Hyperbole, manufactured conflict, and "opinion" are cheap and all too common ratings games imported from reality TV.

However I still believe you are constructing a false equivalency.

It is one thing to report information and subsequently provide opinion or analysis. "Based on X, I conclude Y for the following reasons." The breadth and objectivity of that evidence and reasonableness of that opinion can be critically assessed.

It is another thing to provide opinion and subsequently manufacture details to legitimize it.

It actually does matter whether or not Podesta's emails contained information about a human-trafficking operation being run from a DC pizza shop. This was a detail Alex Jones forcefully and gleefully repeated with complete disregard for whether or not the statement was true. Once caught-out he tried to scrub the record of his assertions before being forced by a Texas court to publicly acknowledge it was not a factual statement.




Of course knowingly spreading false news is illegal and should be punished accordingly. Libel laws exist to protect the reputations and property of those falsely accused. My mention of the Podesta emails was about the list of respected journalists at major media outlets who were willing to edit their own reporting to help HRC's campaign. Hell, several of them were happy to allow Hillary's staff to edit their columns for them! That sort of thing doesn't exactly inspire trust for the mainstream media.


I think I understand the false equivalency you referred to. My goal is not to create an equivalency between Alex Jones and the New York Times; nor is it to defend Alex Jones or demonize the Times. My goal is to shine some light on what I see as a false narrative about the role of 'facts' in news reporting. My contention is that The New York Times does not have a monopoly on facts, logic or upright behavior, and that tabloids are not de facto misinformed and amoral.

In many situations a measured course through the available information will lead to a logically defensible conclusion. Facts alone, though, can't tell the whole tale. People (particularly people with political power) are often not motivated by rationality, and the innuendos of tabloids often cut directly to more likely explanations than the available facts would seem to support.

The thing about the mediacentric handwringing over 'facts', 'fake news' and 'post-truth' that really rankles me is its definite tilt toward regulation of speech, and the silencing of marginal voices that are deemed insufficiently 'factual'. The mainstream media is in no danger of losing its pulpit, aligned as it is with powerful political interests. I favor more marginal voices, not fewer.




chikoppi
Forum Full Member


Registered: 04/02/04
Posts: 1971
Location: N/A
 
Re:Shills and Astroturf: Addkisson
Monday, April 24 2017 @ 12:17 PM CDT

@MotherofMeursault

Yup. I agree with that. A diverse news diet is important for exactly the reasons you cite.

“Ya, that idea is dildos.” Skwisgaar Skwigelf
GET SONG FEEDBACK --> MacJams Critics Circles
MotherofMeursault
Forum Full Member


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 380
Location: , United States
 
Re:Shills and Astroturf: Addkisson
Monday, April 24 2017 @ 01:06 PM CDT

Quote by: chikoppi
@MotherofMeursault

Yup. I agree with that. A diverse news diet is important for exactly the reasons you cite.





What??!! That's it?!

B-but I hadn't finished torturing my syntax yet…..




Ah well, there's always next time Big Grin

MoM
chikoppi
Forum Full Member


Registered: 04/02/04
Posts: 1971
Location: N/A
 
Re:Shills and Astroturf: Addkisson
Monday, April 24 2017 @ 01:33 PM CDT

Quote by: MotherofMeursault
What??!! That's it?!

B-but I hadn't finished torturing my syntax yet…..


Whoops, sorry!

Um...your ideas are all wrong, you're a bad person, and you should feel bad?

P.S. There are a few journalists who have become quite vocal in calling out the inadequacies of reporting by major outlets, particularly with respect to the ability to contextualize information. David Frum and Anne Applebaum come to mind, both of whom are relatively centrist (or at least defy simplistic pigeonholing). Check out Frum's performance on Charlie Rose contrasted with reporters from the Washington Post and New York Times on April 17.

“Ya, that idea is dildos.” Skwisgaar Skwigelf
GET SONG FEEDBACK --> MacJams Critics Circles
 
magnatone
Forum Full Member


Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 4388
Location: N/A
 
Re:Shills and Astroturf: Addkisson
Monday, April 24 2017 @ 01:42 PM CDT

Quote by: chikoppi
Quote by: MotherofMeursault
What??!! That's it?!

B-but I hadn't finished torturing my syntax yet…..


Whoops, sorry!

Um...your ideas are all wrong, you're a bad person, and you should feel bad?

P.S. There are a few journalists who have become quite vocal in calling out the inadequacies of reporting by major outlets, particularly with respect to the ability to contextualize information. David Frum and Anne Applebaum come to mind, both of whom are relatively centrist (or at least defy simplistic pigeonholing). Check out Frum's performance on Charlie Rose contrasted with reporters from the Washington Post and New York Times on April 17.



this is so refreshing

my most recent song: "First Light (solo piano)"