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basse
Forum Newbie


Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 5
Location: , Norway
 
Re:AngrySiteKeeps Getting Worse
Tuesday, September 21 2004 @ 12:05 PM CDT

Quote by: MissChaos
Ha! Well if your roster of songs is any indication... Eek!



Hey! That was MY line... Twisted Evil
mcsweb
Forum Full Member


Registered: 07/16/04
Posts: 182
Location: N/A
 
Re:AngrySiteKeeps Getting Worse
Tuesday, September 21 2004 @ 12:13 PM CDT

Maybe I missed something here. I'm not sure Basse or CandyandPolice are referring to the likes of rschletty or MissChaos at all, really. Their major irritation seems to be directed toward the use of GB by otherwise non-musicians to create music that they (CAP and Basse) deem invalid. In particular, they don't like songs based on loops where the composer didn't actually play the parts using "real" instruments. CAP's broad brush appears to include pencil editors, who are using GB more as a compositional tool than a performance tool. There are really a couple of separate issues here.

First involves the use of loops. I think the issue needs to be defined a little more accurately; the issue isn't the use of loops per se, it's the use of loops you didn't "write" (please note that I didn't say "perform"). I'll call these pre-fabs instead of loops, since if you write it and loop it, I don't think that's the problem. We had a whole, impossibly long thread on the topic called Loops vs. Creativity very recently. (That title creates an interesting pretext by implying the two terms are mutually exclusive, although I am certain the forum's creator did not intend that.) You can read extensively the debate there, but let me say that CAP is not alone in his position regarding pre-fabs, at least judging by that forum.

The second issue raised, the use of GB's editor to compose songs -- albeit original -- that you did not play yourself is completely separate. This is a performance issue. But if a composer is up-front about the fact he/she didn't perform it, they just composed it, I'm hard-presssed to see a valid criticism there since the composition is completely original and stands for itself. It is not intended to be an example of "performance", although there are elements of performance in that work. (It's damn hard work to make instruments sound as though they were played naturally by humans using just an editor). Maybe CAP needs to rethink that, I don't know.

The 3rd issue is one of support and what the purpose of the site is. I guess everyone is free to define the site as they see fit, but I define the site as a place for musicians of all levels, from novice to advanced to come and exchange ideas, share their work, and comment on them. From that standpoint, it's not really an entertainment site. When you come to listen to the music here, it's not like when you are listening to the radio. It's more like a workshop... You have an opportunity to interact directly with the artist here, provide feedback, offer advice, and possibly learn something. THAT's what I see this site being about.

Under that definition, there is a place for all types of music and backgrounds, including those who don't know a lick about music, can't play an instrument to save their lives, don't know the first thing about composing music, and are merely playing with loops of music they didn't write. I can understand CAP & Co's frustration that there seems to be quite a lot of that type of music here, and yes, I think some do take those creations a tad seriously. On the other hand, I don't see any reason to get pissed off about it though.

The fourth issue I see brought up is actually not brought up by CAP & Basse at all, but those on the other side of the debate. They seem to believe that unless you write or perform music yourself, and submit it here, that your opinion doesn't count. Like you have to be an actor or a director, have produced a film of your own, and released it -- somewhere -- for your judgement of whether or not you like a movie to be valid. In debate this is called a red herring, because a person's ability to write or perform is not the measure of their ability to critique music (hell our entire music industry is founded on the opinion's of the great unwashed that LISTEN and BUY, not those who PLAY and WRITE). I think usually these comments come off as threats: "OK, if your so smart, post something of your own... I dare you!" LOL I think we should let that approach go.

Finally, I've been playing instruments of several different types for years (mostly keyboard/piano). Most of my songs are played entirely by me, live, without a lot help from pre-fabs. But I do still use some pre-fabs, like drum riffs from GB's loop library, on occasion. I like listening to all types of music, so even the most unoriginal work here has a place, even if it's just to highlight work that is original. To allow people like CAP and others to discern what they want to listen to, and possibly as a way of full disclosure, perhaps we should have a field in the song submission form that tells us if the piece you are submitting contains NO pre-fabs (is all original), some pre-fab s (original playing, but with some borrowed loops), or ALL pre-fabs (all loops).

Personally I don't care enough about the use of pre-fabs to really feel that this idea is any sort of great solution, but the pre-fab (loop) issue isn't going away. This could be a potential solution.
deputydoofy
Forum Full Member


Registered: 02/09/04
Posts: 2256
Location: Doofyville, Doofsylvania Doofstantine
 
Re:AngrySiteKeeps Getting Worse
Tuesday, September 21 2004 @ 12:28 PM CDT

Quote by: mcsweb


To allow people like CAP and others to discern what they want to listen to, and possibly as a way of full disclosure, perhaps we should have a field in the song submission form that tells us if the piece you are submitting contains NO pre-fabs (is all original), some pre-fab s (original playing, but with some borrowed loops), or ALL pre-fabs (all loops).

Personally I don't care enough about the use of pre-fabs to really feel that this idea is any sort of great solution, but the pre-fab (loop) issue isn't going away. This could be a potential solution.



Being the Doof of Loops, I can say that I could not care less if someone doesn't think me a musician. I know I don't think me a musician, so it's all good.
That said, I've made the very same suggestion to a few sites. There should be 3 radio buttons on the submit page. One to denote ALL loops, one to denote some loops/some real-playing instruments, and one to denote ALL instruments played by the submitter. Of course, the loops could be broken down further. Are they pre-fabbed or did you make your own. There is still a subtle talent to making your own loops. That's a talent I've yet to acquire. Mr. Green


 
Re:AngrySiteKeeps Getting Worse
Tuesday, September 21 2004 @ 12:43 PM CDT

I disagree that we need a process to differentiate each songs origins when uploading a new tune. Let the process of a songs evolution come out in the comments and discussions that follow a masterpiece that stimulates questions like, "how did you do that?" If a song is good enough to evoke inquiries, it serves to generate conversation about technique, production flow, and process. Which, in turn, results in more positive feedback and communication. That not only helps me learn, but also assists my ability to objectively listen to a song before I'm biased by prior knowledge of production techniques.
SlimGirlFat
Forum Full Member


Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 428
Location: Slimmieville, UK
 
Re:AngrySiteKeeps Getting Worse
Tuesday, September 21 2004 @ 12:43 PM CDT



This whole thread started not just because of the opinions of the children (C&P etc), that use the site, but because of the "manner" in which they chose to express that opinion.
That first post from C&P was assigned to one of my tracks and as a fairly well known member on MJ's I have been in the front line for their childish pranks and bombings for a while. I am not the only one either...
They have not been adverse to some rather nasty emailing to certain members on this site either, quite aptly expressing their command of the "explicit" dictionary.

One takes the good and bad on a big members site like this, and the reason so many of us are here is purely and simply because we own a piece of software called GarageBand. It's a great thing, however one chooses to use it..loops or not.

So whether Musician or not, Loop user or not, surely we are entitled to post our compilations up, without a bunch of kids irritating us with their Honest ( but fairly mundane and boring teenage angst)

What would be a shame, is if people stop loading up music to the site, because the comments/ or votes ( if that's important) they receive, all start to sound like C&Ps crass remarks ( who by the way I am sure will be delighted at the responses to this thread they have had so far. Maybe some of you are happy to let them continue.


SlimGirlFat



"Cleverly Disguised as a Responsible adult."
deputydoofy
Forum Full Member


Registered: 02/09/04
Posts: 2256
Location: Doofyville, Doofsylvania Doofstantine
 
Re:AngrySiteKeeps Getting Worse
Tuesday, September 21 2004 @ 01:31 PM CDT

Skipper, you do have a valid point. However, I also think if people want to hear non-loop stuff, there should be a way to search for it. Besides, the people who do a search for the sole purpose of weeding out loops are missing the point of this site.
This site is about creativity, whether it be from scratch or with the pieces supplied to us.
I know I'm not looking for a music contract, nor could I get one. I'm looking to have fun with my GB software. Thanks to this site, I get to share my creations with YOU, the people, and YOU, the people, get to share with me. I enjoy that.
With loops, I also enjoy hearing where another's creativity takes the same loop that I have used.
If I wanted to hear commercial music, I'd listen to the radio.
As for teenagers, MOST, not all, are stupid. You can usually tell the stupid ones by the amount of CAPS USED AND HOW MUCH EVERYTHING SUCKS. YOU SUCK!! Mr. Green
Truth42
Forum Newbie


Registered: 09/09/04
Posts: 6
Location: N/A
 
Re:AngrySiteKeeps Getting Worse
Tuesday, September 21 2004 @ 01:33 PM CDT

Take a chill pill. Just because people are not fortunate enough to be born with your level of talent doesn't mean that they shouldn't make music or want other people to hear what they have created.
nobunaga
Forum Full Member


Registered: 05/12/04
Posts: 160
Location: , Tokyo Japan
 
Re:AngrySiteKeeps Getting Worse
Tuesday, September 21 2004 @ 05:15 PM CDT

After reading this thread and having started or participated in some similar ones in the past about the whole loops vs acoustic instruments thing, I gotta say I'm almost inclined to agree with the boy who started this thread. This tone of the posts here is angry and it has been getting more angry.

When I first came here I posted about how I was happy that GB gave me something that made it easy to get back to doing what I did years ago with a room full of samplers, synths, mixers and recording gear. Not only was I happy to play with GB but I was happy to share my stuff here with other people. It encouraged me to do more music. I'm not a "musician" by trade or as a primary interest. I just like making songs. All this *censored*ing and fighting about what is or isnt appropriate or cool here is tiresome though. Sorry I contributed to it at all. It doesnt discourage me from doing more music, but it does encourage me to just keep making what I want to hear for myself, maybe putting it on my website but it definitely encourages me not to share it here.

To the boys who started this thread: Keep on being kids. [GrampaSimpsonVoice]When I was your age, old people made me mad too[/GrampasimpsonVoice] But fact is some of us were making this same kinda music before you were born. That isnt going to change you or your opinions but its a fact so get used to it. If you want to be heard instead of shouted at like kids, put up some of your own music though.
TrashCan Alley
Forum Newbie


Registered: 07/24/04
Posts: 6
Location: N/A
 
Re:AngrySiteKeeps Getting Worse
Tuesday, September 21 2004 @ 07:37 PM CDT

This reply is to only CLEARLY state that we DID have songs on her but we DELETED them because we we're getiin tired of the site.That, and C&P(me)is da dude and GDBJTHM(Mich(elle)is the even angrier girl.But we're not angry, we just think that making a loop song can be done by anyone.Oh and theyre very repetitive which makes them annoying.It doesnt mean they're not good,(although i personally dont like alot)they just get repetitive and they get very uninteresting after a while.Using GB means you have to CHOOSE what you want, not WHAT you want.(unless you go crazy with a pencil tool like alimar)but even then GB can be very limiting to what you want and you get more vibe from a song you played yourself.So unless i think of anything else, thats really all i meant.
 
dchapman
Forum Full Member


Registered: 02/22/04
Posts: 532
Location: Kitchener, Ontario Canada
 
Re:AngrySiteKeeps Getting Worse
Tuesday, September 21 2004 @ 09:51 PM CDT

Well, to start that was the most civilized post that you've made yet and I have to say that once you express yourself this way, i agree with some of what you have to say....

There ARE quite a bit of bad loop based pieces here, I agree. There are also quite a bit of good loop based music here. I must say that I don't think that it's fair to criticize all of the pieces based on your opinion of a few bad loop songs. If you hear a good loop based song you wouldn't even know it was loop based.

Making a broad statement about loop based music is unfair to the songs that are good and are loop based. The game of music is changing, so are the playing pieces. When I was a teen (way back in the 80's) metal was it. It was all i listened to, exclusively. If it had a synth it was crap. When (in college) i joined a trio based around synthesizers with a female vocalist (i did this for money... i was a musical whore) i was forced to learn music i wouldn't have otherwise given the time of day. I quickly learned the benefits of playing and analyzing music i didn't like. It has greatly broadened my horizons. I'm still a metal/hard rock fan, but the influences i took from playing new wave/MOR pop has caused me to inject some different flavours into the hard rock that i write.

I guess my point is that excluding something because you thought it was once crap may limit your future possibilities. Don't exclude the loop songs from your playing cuz you heard a few bad ones. As a rule, I dislike rap, but artists like kid rock, linkin park, saliva and the like make it accessible to those who otherwise wouldn't listen.

Give the stuff a chance. If a song sucks, say it sucks. Don't say it sucks cause it was made with loops. Lots of the performace pieces here suck too... but the one thing that everyone here has in common is that we're all eager to learn.

If a song sucks, say why it sucks, give some CONSTRUCTIVE criticism to the piece. Who knows, the creator may agree and the next peice may not suck.

Ok, end of rant... for now.

Check out my Latest Instrumental: Waiting for the Other