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MikeRobinson
Forum Full Member


Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 926
Location: Chattanooga, TN United States
 
"Trump's America" – or – "What An American Thing To Do?"
Saturday, December 08 2018 @ 03:14 PM CST

Our colleague and friend, ramonjaji, just posted a very-satisfying piece called Trump’s America which somehow piqued my interest and, in so doing, sparked an inspiration for “a topic of water-cooler conversation” which, I decided, didn’t belong in a song-comment.   So, here goes ...   (And I beg Ramon’s indulgence here, because I am not at this point commenting – at all – about her song.)

In 2015-2016, as it became clear to me that Donald Trump was going to win, and that his opponent could not see it coming, and that not one of her lackeys had the heart to tell her ... and although I voted but did not vote for either of them ... I found myself gazing in morbid wonder at the politics that were happening before my eyes.   “OMG ... They are actually going to do it ...
... what an American thing to do!”
Donald Trump was the first(!) Presidential candidate in all of America’s [brief ...] political history who was neither “a career politician” nor “a retired Army General.”   Although the Republican Party managed to co-opt him into their camp at the last minute, his thoughts and actions are basically independent – but of course seasoned enough to “dance with the one that brung ye.”

It was, therefore, utterly absurd, by any measure of conventional political thinking, even to imagine that this person had a chance of actually winning, because by doing so the American voters threw 227 years’s worth of “precedent” into the garbage can.   “Surely, the American people must have been ... must have been ... must have ... (I know!) ... influenced by (who else could it be?) Russians!

And so, I wonder – might it now be the case, well into this 21st Century, that all of this wasn’t a mistake?   That it might be a harbinger of things to come – even though of course none of us can yet foretell, nor be expected to foretell, what those things might be?

Might this actually be a sea change?   A harbinger of something so profound that none of us here-and-now can see it, although our grandchildren will write history-books about it?

Yeah, I think about such offhand long-view things sometimes. Any takers?
ramonaji
Forum Newbie


Registered: 06/01/08
Posts: 7
Location: Tucson, Arizona United States
 
Re:
Saturday, December 08 2018 @ 05:49 PM CST

A profound contemplation. I hope a conversation erupts. I shall be back!
Daugrin
Forum Full Member


Registered: 03/24/09
Posts: 1180
Location: , Extraverse
 
Re:
Saturday, December 08 2018 @ 11:25 PM CST

Quote by: MikeRobinson
Our colleague and friend, ramonjaji, just posted a very-satisfying piece called Trump’s America which somehow piqued my interest and, in so doing, sparked an inspiration for “a topic of water-cooler conversation” which, I decided, didn’t belong in a song-comment.   So, here goes ...   (And I beg Ramon’s indulgence here, because I am not at this point commenting – at all – about her song.)

In 2015-2016, as it became clear to me that Donald Trump was going to win, and that his opponent could not see it coming, and that not one of her lackeys had the heart to tell her ... and although I voted but did not vote for either of them ... I found myself gazing in morbid wonder at the politics that were happening before my eyes.   “OMG ... They are actually going to do it ...
... what an American thing to do!”
Donald Trump was the first(!) Presidential candidate in all of America’s [brief ...
political history who was neither “a career politician” nor “a retired Army General.”   Although the Republican Party managed to co-opt him into their camp at the last minute, his thoughts and actions are basically independent – but of course seasoned enough to “dance with the one that brung ye.”

It was, therefore, utterly absurd, by any measure of conventional political thinking, even to imagine that this person had a chance of actually winning, because by doing so the American voters threw 227 years’s worth of “precedent” into the garbage can.   “Surely, the American people must have been ... must have been ... must have ... (I know!) ... influenced by (who else could it be?) Russians!

And so, I wonder – might it now be the case, well into this 21st Century, that all of this wasn’t a mistake?   That it might be a harbinger of things to come – even though of course none of us can yet foretell, nor be expected to foretell, what those things might be?

Might this actually be a sea change?   A harbinger of something so profound that none of us here-and-now can see it, although our grandchildren will write history-books about it?

Yeah, I think about such offhand long-view things sometimes. Any takers?



Sir, the history books you trumpet are already written and your grandchildren will consume whatever it is Big Sister desires for them, in the manner you yourself consume and regurgitate today. What hubris on your part Sir!

Just for fun, what Presidential race looks most like Trump vs Clinton 2016? Dewey vs Truman is the best analog perhaps. Especially if one considers that everyone in the land except Truman's wife knew he would not win re-election in '48. This election is easily cast as globalism vs America first. Is that not fun?

For the sake of your consideration, if one removes the notions of left or right from their procession of intellect and considers only that there is above and below, the Trump election victory becomes easily understandable and frankly predictable. Given the reveals of Mueller, Wiki Leaks and Donna Bs tell all book, wouldn't it be better said that The Clinton campers were knee deep in Russians?

One more? President Obama went on national television and pronounced Clinton innocent of any wrong doing in connection with her home-brew classified server. This is unprecedented in American history and is the first stealth Presidential pardon on record. The FBI wrote the conclusions for the investigations before they even examined any evidence. This classified information thing may seem silly to you folks who are not familiar with what security measures actually entail and what the government actually does to people who violate the laws. In my personal experience people who placed classified materials on home-brew networks went to jail, in 22 years of service I saw this not once, not twice but multiple times. What Clinton did was illegal, she did not go to jail because 'Merica has a two tier justice system.

Donald Trump is a lot of things. He is first a creature of wealth and privilege. I humbly suggest Trump is as flawed as anyone else who ever was elected President but caution one and all about applying middle class values to Trump in an effort to judge him. Judge the results of his efforts on the merits, in direct opposition to how you feel if necessary. How you feel is controlled by Big Sister.

Look at the French riots today my friends. Wouldn't Clinton 2.0 look like that here in the US by now? Have you ever considered that the US government under Obama spent more money, destroyed more wealth and impoverished more people than any previous administration in history? Naw? Big Sister didn't tell you that, but none the less it is demonstrative in reality... and that is a concept, what is real has nothing to do with how you feel, not in 2016, 1968, or 1862. How you feel is how you are being distracted and divided, so that you can be ruled effectively by your betters.

Daug
chikoppi
Forum Full Member


Registered: 04/02/04
Posts: 2057
Location: N/A
 
Re:
Sunday, December 09 2018 @ 12:13 AM CST

Don't bitch about other people's forum posts or how somebody else is ruining Macjams by pissing their ideology all over it. If you don't like it then...don't...do...it.

“Ya, that idea is dildos.” Skwisgaar Skwigelf
GET SONG FEEDBACK --> MacJams Critics Circles
particledots
Forum Full Member


Registered: 05/25/09
Posts: 1760
Location: , United States
 
Re:
Sunday, December 09 2018 @ 08:09 AM CST

oh goody

seems like its ok to revive 'brace for impact' now

YAY
VicDiesel
Forum Full Member


Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 3027
Location: Austin, TX
 
Re:
Sunday, December 09 2018 @ 10:19 AM CST

Quote by: Daugrin
President Obama went on national television and pronounced Clinton innocent of any wrong doing in connection with her home-brew classified server. This is unprecedented in American history and is the first stealth Presidential pardon on record.



Tendentious language aside, what did you think of Bush 41 pardoning the Iran-Contra criminals?

Victor.

-- My CD.
magnatone
Forum Full Member


Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 4473
Location: N/A
 
Re:
Sunday, December 09 2018 @ 10:53 AM CST

Quote by: Daugrin
Sir, the history books you trumpet are already written and your grandchildren will consume whatever it is Big Sister desires for them, in the manner you yourself consume and regurgitate today. What hubris on your part Sir!

Just for fun, what Presidential race looks most like Trump vs Clinton 2016? Dewey vs Truman is the best analog perhaps. Especially if one considers that everyone in the land except Truman's wife knew he would not win re-election in '48. This election is easily cast as globalism vs America first. Is that not fun?

For the sake of your consideration, if one removes the notions of left or right from their procession of intellect and considers only that there is above and below, the Trump election victory becomes easily understandable and frankly predictable. Given the reveals of Mueller, Wiki Leaks and Donna Bs tell all book, wouldn't it be better said that The Clinton campers were knee deep in Russians?

One more? President Obama went on national television and pronounced Clinton innocent of any wrong doing in connection with her home-brew classified server. This is unprecedented in American history and is the first stealth Presidential pardon on record. The FBI wrote the conclusions for the investigations before they even examined any evidence. This classified information thing may seem silly to you folks who are not familiar with what security measures actually entail and what the government actually does to people who violate the laws. In my personal experience people who placed classified materials on home-brew networks went to jail, in 22 years of service I saw this not once, not twice but multiple times. What Clinton did was illegal, she did not go to jail because 'Merica has a two tier justice system.

Donald Trump is a lot of things. He is first a creature of wealth and privilege. I humbly suggest Trump is as flawed as anyone else who ever was elected President but caution one and all about applying middle class values to Trump in an effort to judge him. Judge the results of his efforts on the merits, in direct opposition to how you feel if necessary. How you feel is controlled by Big Sister.

Look at the French riots today my friends. Wouldn't Clinton 2.0 look like that here in the US by now? Have you ever considered that the US government under Obama spent more money, destroyed more wealth and impoverished more people than any previous administration in history? Naw? Big Sister didn't tell you that, but none the less it is demonstrative in reality... and that is a concept, what is real has nothing to do with how you feel, not in 2016, 1968, or 1862. How you feel is how you are being distracted and divided, so that you can be ruled effectively by your betters.

Daug



Quote by: Daugrin

The meme for the certain sign of mental illness is to continue doing the same behavior over and over and expecting different results at the completion of a cycle, no?
Daug



Quote by: Daugrin

My friend why do you insist on frequenting MJs to spout the party line?
Daug


my most recent song: "First Light (solo piano)"
MikeRobinson
Forum Full Member


Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 926
Location: Chattanooga, TN United States
 
Re:
Sunday, December 09 2018 @ 02:19 PM CST

Naww, let’s just pony up to the water-cooler ... i-f you want to ... and just have a little discussion.   (By the way, I have no idea what is meant by “Big Sister,” and I presume that it is not a reference to Ramonji ... as I said, neither she nor her excellent song is our target.)   Also, I certainly mean no “hubris.”   I know no more about what the future will bring than do any of us, but I do think that I see “history in the making, right now,” although I am not sure just what it will turn out to be.



And, please, let’s not let this be Brace for Impact II, because we have already done that (to death).   If we do anything, let’s do something different.   The direction that I would like to see this go, if it goes anywhere at all, is to consider what is happening all around us as a brand-new(?) political phenomenon of which DT is only a harbinger.   Do you think that this happened before, such that we can draw useful analogs from our past?   Or, is this absolutely new?   Are people responding to politics, and, shall we say, implementing politics, in some new way?


Personally, I advance the opinion that we are smack-dab in the middle of some very profound political changes which we actually see happening all over the world, and that many aspects of them are unprecedented.   That’s my opinion and I’m sticking to it – but, what do you think, and why?

Certainly, a very big part of this is “the Internet,” and the emergence of a new generation of people who literally grew-up with it.   But in general I see a new assertiveness – people are holding both their elected officials and their news-sources to task, and at this point in time some of them don’t yet “get it.”   I think that we, once again, “live in interesting times,” and I would suggest that one day as much will be written about the Presidency of Donald Trump as was written about Abraham Lincoln, although certainly without the same veneration.   What we are seeing right now, both in America and in Britain (“Brexit”) and even in ever-tumultous France, and even in the actual Russia, is something that is very unprecedented – or, is it?

I think that future political leaders will be much more like Donald Trump than different – although they will learn from his “trend-setter’s mistakes” and will not exactly emulate him.   I think that those who expect a return to what they now consider “proper normalcy” will be rudely-awakened as they lose election after election until they “get it.”   (But, “get what?”)

So, let the games begin – maybe.   That’s what I think.   What do you think, and why?   If you care to, the water-cooler awaits.
chikoppi
Forum Full Member


Registered: 04/02/04
Posts: 2057
Location: N/A
 
Re:
Sunday, December 09 2018 @ 08:43 PM CST

Mike, I suggest you read Anne Applebaum. She is a Polish-American historian, journalist, and Pulitzer recipient. She also is a professor at the London School of Economics where she heads a research project on disinformation and 21st century propaganda. She has written extensively on the contemporary forces at work across the Western globe that stand in reflexive opposition to the rise of liberal democracies. As a historian she has a keen eye for placing agitations of the current political landscape firmly within historical perspective.

I do not suggest inviting further idle speculation here, as it will inevitably create a great deal of unwelcome heat and friction while producing no light to speak of. There are other, much more suitable forums and sources for that inquiry.

“Ya, that idea is dildos.” Skwisgaar Skwigelf
GET SONG FEEDBACK --> MacJams Critics Circles
 
MikeRobinson
Forum Full Member


Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 926
Location: Chattanooga, TN United States
 
Re:
Monday, December 10 2018 @ 09:04 AM CST

Could you please give the title, and the ISBN if it has one, of that book?

Speculation doesn’t have to be “idle,” nor does it have to be contentious.   (And I would drop it like a hot rock if it turned in that direction, so if we go anywhere let us not go there!)   Whether or not this community wishes to engage in a discussion on this topic is of course entirely up to everyone, but let there be no repetition of Brace for Impact.   No heat, no friction, only light if we find any, or – nothing at all.

And, after all, “may you live in interesting times” was always thought of as a curse . . .

Meanwhile, today I’ve got two other music cues to write.