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J.A.Stewart
Forum Full Member


Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 4641
Location: Somewhere In Time, USA
 
Re:Mueller vs. Edward R. Morrow
Saturday, December 29 2018 @ 11:54 AM CST

Quote by: dimm witness
“Putin aimed to spread ‘discord and disunity’ within the United States and between Western allies, whom he saw as a threat to Russia's interests.”
— Steele dossier

Putin succeeded



Indeed, and exactly why this matter demands the thorough investigation that is being conducted. Like a *nested* Russian doll (or satellite), the Russian campaign had more than one objective.

We need to fully understand the breadth of that effort — and everything and everyone that was involved — so that we can determine how best to defend against such subversion in the future.

To consider such efforts as merely "Russian opinions" is not merely naive, but also dangerously obtuse. Whether Trump & Company played any part in this subterfuge remains to be seen, but what ALL Americans must understand is that we have been playedviolated — by Russian intelligence forces.

MY LATEST: A demo version of my Work-In-Progress DAILY GRIND
MikeRobinson
Forum Full Member


Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 926
Location: Chattanooga, TN United States
 
Re:Mueller vs. Edward R. Morrow
Saturday, December 29 2018 @ 01:33 PM CST

(Unrelated, so I’ll comment.)

I don’t feel violated by Russians – I feel violated by the Secretary of State in my home state of Georgia, who was a candidate in the election he managed.   My white-man’s voter registration vanished, my wife’s did not.   Similar reports of voter-roll improprieties were rampant throughout the State – this is by far the easiest way to tamper with an outcome, especially when you’re the responsible official!   I am sure that the provisional ballot which I cast anyway is languishing un-counted in Atlanta.   Will anyone investigate improprieties in the 2018 (or 2016) election with the realization that “meddling” does not have to come from far-away Moscow?   Not a chance.   Felonies right here at home?   Who cares ... “we want Donald Trump Russians.”

If a ballot-box can be “stuffed,” it will be – and, in 2018 if not also in 2016, it was.   Now that would be an investigation worth doing, and if done properly it would uncover many felons ... in the USA.   Instead, in classic “duck and cover” fashion, they went straight to Moscow ... and have paid no attention to what very plainly did occur right here at home.   They never will.   They already know what answer they want, and they are single-tracking in pursuit of it.

“Moscow” is half-a-planet away.   If someone wanted to “meddle” with, say, the Texas election ... lots of electoral votes ... where would they most-logically do it?   Of course – in Texas.   (Or, how about from Rhode Island?   Any state will do... and this is far more plausible than anywhere outside the country.)   Likewise, even if Russia did take an interest in the outcome of the US Election, how many other foreign states might do the same?   Wouldn’t Great Britain, France and Germany also be very interested?   Mexico, Canada, Brazil, China, North Korea?   Might any of them buy advertisements, too?   That notion is met with silence.   “We have our narrow little theory and we’re stickin’ to it ... for 19 months and tens of millions of dollars and counting.”

If you are tasked with investigating the possibility of a Federal crime, you should take the widest feasible definition of that crime – election tampering – look for it everywhere it might be found (starting in your own back yard), and not limit yourself to a single hypothesis at the exclusion of all others.   That would be sound criminal procedure and a defensible use of public money.   Unfortunately, this investigation was quite obvious from the get-go, and “politics all the way.”

Yes, there are many, many reasons why I do not feel that my tax money is being well-spent.   The problem is big and expansive and undeniable; this investigation is too narrow to be useful.   Plus, it is blatantly political, recklessly expensive, and has gone on much too long ... even if it were being conducted to proper DOJ protocols and standards, which it isn’t.

It should come as no surprise why there are so many objections, of so many different kinds, coming from so many directions.   I want my money back.
J.A.Stewart
Forum Full Member


Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 4641
Location: Somewhere In Time, USA
 
Re:Mueller vs. Edward R. Morrow
Saturday, December 29 2018 @ 04:38 PM CST

Quote by: MikeRobinson
(Unrelated, so I’ll comment.)

I don’t feel violated by Russians – I feel violated by the Secretary of State in my home state of Georgia...



More's the pity. As I stated, it's not merely naive, but dangerously obtuse. What the Russians did, regardless of what actual impact it had on individual voters' decisions, amounts to the first thrust in 21st Century Cyber Warfare, directed at the USA.

It seems to me that your insistence that the masses have not accepted Clinton's defeat and that this imagined denial/obsession has served as the impetus for this investigation, is fanciful, at best. The evidence to support your theory is underwhelming. And your repeated claims otherwise cast YOU as the Captain Ahab in this scenario.

An opinion that ignores all facts and evidence to the contrary, that discounts empirical reality, neither instructs nor illuminates a conversation. It is nothing more than an exercise in self-absorbed mental masturbation that can grow into an obsession.

Based on your overall participation on this site, I believe you are better than that. But unless you are willing to reasonably consider, weigh and accept facts and evidence that challenge your opinions, you only diminish your own credibility.

Are there issues you and I and others can agree on? Certainly. There have been serious questions raised in several states about questionable election activities and even post-election actions aimed at thwarting duly-elected incoming officials.

For the record, all of these activities seem to have been perpetrated by Republican operatives and officials. That's not to say that Democrats have not been culpable in such activities in the past. No, but in this recent midterm election there has been widespread voter suppression and/or manipulation efforts by Republican officials across the country.

The most serious allegations have arisen in your own state, Georgia, as well as in Florida, Texas, North Dakota and perhaps most notoriously, in North Carolina. In all cases, these instances deserve full scrutiny, investigation — and punishment, where warranted.

Lame-duck Republican legislatures in Michigan and Wisconsin have enacted post-election measures that are aimed at weakening newly-elected Democrat Governors, thereby subverting the will of the people who legitimately elected these new Governors. EVERY American should view such actions as a despicable affront to our Democracy.

Having served as a strategic consultant for both government and politics for the final quarter of my professional career, I purposefully avoid discussing politics in my personal life. I know, from long experience, that it rarely leads to anything positive. A recent study seems to have affirmed my observation.

Much like the babbling of Monday Morning Quarterbacks, who have no real clue about the intricacies of professional sports, EVERYBODY believes they understand politics. It is not my intention to disabuse you or anyone else of that notion. For many, it is the only participatory *sport* in which they will ever partake.

But what I find to be more pragmatic and constructive, is to focus on issues on which we can all agree. I believe nefarious election shenanigans is one of those. I'm pleased to agree with you there. Wink




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chikoppi
Forum Full Member


Registered: 04/02/04
Posts: 2057
Location: N/A
 
Re:Mueller vs. Edward R. Morrow
Saturday, December 29 2018 @ 08:59 PM CST

Quote by: MikeRobinson
Instead, in classic “duck and cover” fashion, they went straight to Moscow ...



NO. The evidence is clear. Once again...

The Department of Homeland Security, the CIA, the FBI, state law enforcement agencies, the Pentagon, and the intelligence services of our allies have all confirmed a widespread campaign directed by Russian intelligence that spanned cyber warfare, human operatives, money laundering, and targeted disinformation.

That much is confirmed. We've already indicted multiple individuals in the Russian military.

Your willingness to repeatedly deny the most substantiated of evidence is alarming.

Quote by: MikeRobinson
“Moscow” is half-a-planet away.   If someone wanted to “meddle” with, say, the Texas election ... lots of electoral votes ... where would they most-logically do it?



Really? Is that how you think computers work? How physically close do you have to be to the MacJams server before you are able to access the site?

Also, where do you think Maria Butina was operating? Where do you think Flynn met with Turkish officials and the Russian ambassador? DC, New York, South Dakota, etc. Alexander Torshin, former member of the Russian Federation Council, deputy governor of the Central Bank of Russia, and Putin's right-hand man has diligently attended every NRA annual meeting since 2011.

You must think it's impossible for the US to "meddle" with Iran? After all, we're half a world away. How could we?

Do you think US federal and military intelligence, along with state law enforcement, are all stupid or all lying?


Quote by: MikeRobinson
Likewise, even if Russia did take an interest in the outcome of the US Election, how many other foreign states might do the same?   Wouldn’t Great Britain, France and Germany also be very interested?   Mexico, Canada, Brazil, China, North Korea?   Might any of them buy advertisements, too?   That notion is met with silence.   “We have our narrow little theory and we’re stickin’ to it ... for 19 months and tens of millions of dollars and counting.”



It wasn't "advertising." Every intelligence service in the Western Hemisphere confirms Russia engaged in a far-reaching, long term, and multi-threaded espionage campaign.

It's not "a theory." It was never "a theory."

You still don't even understand the scope of the special investigation. It is a sub-set of the greater defense and intelligence investigation into Russian espionage, specifically focused on Russia's attempts to infiltrate and influence persons associated with the campaign. It is the only aspect of the greater investigation that requires a special prosecutor.

Quote by: MikeRobinson
If you are tasked with investigating the possibility of a Federal crime, you should take the widest feasible definition of that crime – election tampering – look for it everywhere it might be found (starting in your own back yard), and not limit yourself to a single hypothesis at the exclusion of all others.   That would be sound criminal procedure and a defensible use of public money.   Unfortunately, this investigation was quite obvious from the get-go, and “politics all the way.”

Yes, there are many, many reasons why I do not feel that my tax money is being well-spent.   The problem is big and expansive and undeniable; this investigation is too narrow to be useful.   Plus, it is blatantly political, recklessly expensive, and has gone on much too long ... even if it were being conducted to proper DOJ protocols and standards, which it isn’t.

It should come as no surprise why there are so many objections, of so many different kinds, coming from so many directions.   I want my money back.



How many years experience do you have in federal law enforcement, intelligence analysis, or counter-espionage? You'd better go tell all those folks how to do their jobs. They really need your special expertise and insight.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/11/30/us/mueller-investigation-team-prosecutors.html

The Mueller investigation has already been the second most productive in history in terms of convictions, second only to Watergate. The average length of a special investigation is four years. Whitewater cost more than $70M and lasted over six years.

As has been pointed out to you repeatedly, the investigation has to date taken in an estimated $20M more than it has cost. It has made money for taxpayers.

It should come as no surprise that the investigation enjoys definitive support among voters and has been repeatedly validated by Federal Courts, State Courts, and Grand Juries.

in other words...try pulling the other one.

"I believe the time has come to bring that investigation and the other investigations of the matter to an end." - Richard Nixon, January 30,1974

“Ya, that idea is dildos.” Skwisgaar Skwigelf
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mr_mordenus
Forum Full Member


Registered: 06/04/07
Posts: 416
Location: Plasticville,
 
Re:Mueller vs. Edward R. Morrow
Saturday, December 29 2018 @ 10:04 PM CST

Quote by: magnatone
Quote by: MikeRobinson
I have bowed out.  



Quote by: MikeRobinson
But,






I just have to say, in all my days, and I mightily suspect through all the days that I may have yet remaining, I daresay that I will never - I mean ever - witness a more flawless demonstration of the concept of "succinct".


MikeRobinson
Forum Full Member


Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 926
Location: Chattanooga, TN United States
 
Re:Mueller vs. Edward R. Morrow
Sunday, December 30 2018 @ 08:36 AM CST

(We changed the subject, sort of ...)

If we want to talk about election tampering as a software-driven data handling process, as it basically is today, then I do have some actual expertise in such areas.   For instance:

(1) [Election] Tampering can come from any source – we have already seen that machines are vulnerable but we should assume processes as well.   Proper investigation begins with the most probable cause, not the scenario that someone else is already looking for.   (After all, that person could himself be a culprit.)   In any situation like this the number-one suspect is rogue employees working within the responsible department(s).   For instance, I have no doubt that the reason why my voter registration was purged was – by [the staff of] the Secretary/candidate himself.   There is no reason to look, first, even outside that department – a foreign state would be far down on my list.   Any intruder “on the outside,” no matter far-away he is on that outside, would not only have to locate(!) the crypto defenses, but penetrate them without detection, gain access to the system, understand it, and then with that highly-improbable understanding tamper with it and manage to do so without tripping any audit or data-integrity checks.

You readily see how improbable it is that such attacks actually originate from the outside, let alone offshore, for any such data-handling system.

When penetrations become public – and companies try very hard to see that they don’t – “foreign hackers” are the easiest distraction to vaguely wave your fingers at, and these days of course they’re almost always Russian.™   Well, it makes a good headline, and it’s far-away.   Oh, and the CTO just took an early retirement three months later.

(2) If we hypothesize somehow that “a foreign state” was responsible, there is zero reason in my mind to presume that exactly one state was responsible, and that no other state would be doing the same.   Per contra, we should presume exactly the opposite.   How closely are we examining our “closest allies?”   Why did we immediately finger exactly one state, and exactly this one state?   That’s quite a conclusion to jump to, on day one!

And finally:

... well, you know what point #3 is ... I will leave that match un-lit.

So, my very-complicated views on the matter are really three:
  1. This investigation is expensive, too long, improper (or, illegal) in its methods, and political.   It is also frankly unlikely to produce results except by forcing confessions – I have never heard of a large technical analytics/forensics group being associated with it, let alone the fifty that would be needed because every state does voting differently.
  2. Although it purports to be investigating election tampering, it failed to leave unturned – or apparently to even look for – the very (and, very domestic) stone that, last November, hit me in the head.
  3. Advertising is not meddling.   (In fact, who decided to use the vaporous term, “meddling,” anyhow?)
So, no, to say the very least I’m unimpressed.
magnatone
Forum Full Member


Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 4473
Location: N/A
 
Re:Mueller vs. Edward R. Morrow
Sunday, December 30 2018 @ 09:18 AM CST

Quote by: MikeRobinson
Okay, Chikoppi, I shall graciously yield the debate-floor on these points after giving you the final word.


.......

Quote by: MikeRobinson
Good point – last word from me.


.......

Quote by: MikeRobinson
I have bowed out.


.......

Quote by: MikeRobinson


Over to you for the last word. I’m done. Really, this time.


.......


my most recent song: "First Light (solo piano)"
chikoppi
Forum Full Member


Registered: 04/02/04
Posts: 2057
Location: N/A
 
Re:Mueller vs. Edward R. Morrow
Sunday, December 30 2018 @ 11:09 AM CST



Quote by: MikeRobinson
(We changed the subject, sort of ...)


It's fine. No one expected you to actually follow through on your repeated assurances.

Quote by: MikeRobinson
If we want to talk about election tampering as a software-driven data handling process, as it basically is today, then I do have some actual expertise in such areas.   For instance:

(1) [Election
Tampering can come from any source – we have already seen that machines are vulnerable but we should assume processes as well.   Proper investigation begins with the most probable cause, not the scenario that someone else is already looking for.   (After all, that person could himself be a culprit.)   In any situation like this the number-one suspect is rogue employees working within the responsible department(s).   For instance, I have no doubt that the reason why my voter registration was purged was – by [the staff of
the Secretary/candidate himself.   There is no reason to look, first, even outside that department – a foreign state would be far down on my list.   Any intruder “on the outside,” no matter far-away he is on that outside, would not only have to locate(!) the crypto defenses, but penetrate them without detection, gain access to the system, understand it, and then with that highly-improbable understanding tamper with it and manage to do so without tripping any audit or data-integrity checks.

You readily see how improbable it is that such attacks actually originate from the outside, let alone offshore, for any such data-handling system.


You know who else has "some actual expertise is such areas?" The National Security Administration.

"The report indicates that Russian hacking may have penetrated further into U.S. voting systems than was previously understood. It states unequivocally in its summary statement that it was Russian military intelligence, specifically the Russian General Staff Main Intelligence Directorate, or GRU, that conducted the cyber attacks described in the document."

https://theintercept.com/2017/06/05/top-secret-nsa-report-details-russian-hacking-effort-days-before-2016-election/

For some reason you seem to assume the limit of your knowledge is the limit of all knowledge. That is unwise.

Quote by: MikeRobinson
When penetrations become public – and companies try very hard to see that they don’t – “foreign hackers” are the easiest distraction to vaguely wave your fingers at, and these days of course they’re almost always Russian.™   Well, it makes a good headline, and it’s far-away.   Oh, and the CTO just took an early retirement three months later.



Let me help. The Russians conducted wide-ranging cyber warfare tactics in an attempt to disrupt and influence our elections.

No one is guessing. There is copious forensic evidence.

The leaked National Security Administration report is far from the only source confirmation, nor does it describe the full scope of Russian activities to interfere in our election.

Our intelligence agencies have made declarative public assessments and the bi-partisan Senate Intel Committee has confirmed the classified reporting they have received via the ICA (joint Intelligence Community Assessment).

"The Committee finds that the overall judgments issued in the ICA were well-supported and the tradecraft was strong. The course of the Committee’s investigation has shown that the Russian cyber operations were more extensive than the hack of the Democratic National Committee and continued well through the 2016 election."

http://time.com/5202774/russia-hacking-dhs-report-power/
https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/27/politics/russia-dnc-hacking-csr/index.html
https://www.us-cert.gov/GRIZZLY-STEPPE-Russian-Malicious-Cyber-Activity
https://www.burr.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/SSCI%20ICA%20ASSESSMENT_FINALJULY3.pdf

There is far, far more if you but care to look. I'm not going to be your research monkey. You are responsible for you own lack of knowledge.

Multiple agency reports, records of official testimony, and unclassified defense, intelligence, and congressional assessments are all publicly available.

These are our intelligence agencies.

They are telling you we know Russia interfered.

They are telling you some attacks were successful, that other attacks were unsuccessful but the intention was clear and the potential harm was severe, and that they are still engaged and will try again.


Quote by: MikeRobinson
(2) If we hypothesize somehow that “a foreign state” was responsible, there is zero reason in my mind to presume that exactly one state was responsible, and that no other state would be doing the same.   Per contra, we should presume exactly the opposite.   How closely are we examining our “closest allies?”   Why did we immediately finger exactly one state, and exactly this one state?   That’s quite a conclusion to jump to, on day one!

And finally:

... well, you know what point #3 is ... I will leave that match un-lit.

So, my very-complicated views on the matter are really three:
  1. This investigation is expensive, too long, improper (or, illegal) in its methods, and political.   It is also frankly unlikely to produce results except by forcing confessions – I have never heard of a large technical analytics/forensics group being associated with it, let alone the fifty that would be needed because every state does voting differently.
  2. Although it purports to be investigating election tampering, it failed to leave unturned – or apparently to even look for – the very (and, very domestic) stone that, last November, hit me in the head.
  3. Advertising is not meddling.   (In fact, who decided to use the vaporous term, “meddling,” anyhow?)
So, no, to say the very least I’m unimpressed.


What?!

Why finger Russia? Because there is singular and overwhelming evidence of an aggressive, long-term campaign of hostile and state-directed espionage.

No analytics/forensics? What do you think the NSA, CIA, FBI, DHS, and department of defense do?

Are you referring to the Mueller investigation? If so, what they hell do you think the Mueller investigation has to do with state voting systems or election tampering?

Your comments aren't just oblique and filled with non-sequitur, but I'm not even sure they'd pass a Turing test at this point.

You have definitively demonstrated that you don't have even a tenuous grip on actual facts, a desire to ascertain them, or the ability to assess them.

But by all means, continue to pillory yourself.

“Ya, that idea is dildos.” Skwisgaar Skwigelf
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MikeRobinson
Forum Full Member


Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 926
Location: Chattanooga, TN United States
 
Re:Mueller vs. Edward R. Morrow
Wednesday, January 02 2019 @ 01:21 PM CST

I know too much about how data-systems and election-systems work to believe for one split-second that secret government agencies half-a-planet away caused Hillary Clinton to lose the election.   The present POTUS didn’t have to cheat in order to win that election:   he didn’t need help, nor dollar bills, from anyone.   Although I did not vote for either of them, I knew who the winner would be when he first appeared on the scene.   When he announced, he had already won.

One day, political scholars will be studying the Trump presidency as carefully as they do the equally-pivotal Presidencies of Lincoln and FDR.   (Although please note that neither of these two gentlemen were recognized as such, in their own time.)

I am not surprised and do not care that foreigners, or even foreign governments, purchased Facebook advertisements or tried to talk/up various candidates (while many others were, or so I am told, doing the same).   I do not consider every act that could qualify under the ambiguous English word, “meddling,” to be a felony.   So sorry that you spent $3 billion on advertising that didn’t work.

I also know that I was denied the right to vote in my own state as a direct result of tampering with the voter rolls.   And I know that Mr. Mueller is not looking and does not care.   The thought that this could have negatively contributed to the election outcome – far more probably than Russians ever could – seems totally un-interesting to them.   Merely because this line of exploration would not put an ex-President onto a helicopter.   (So, should I laugh at this, or cry?)

Unfortunately I do know what his one-and-only true target is – everyone does and always has – and that is precisely why I compared him directly to Joseph McCarthy in post #1 of this thread.   When I look at this entire thing and at the methods used (“Have you no decency?” ), he has no credibility with me.   And, again, I am not alone in any of my opinions.   There are many, many people out there who do not want the US Justice system being used in this manner, and who harbor no illusions.
 
MikeRobinson
Forum Full Member


Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 926
Location: Chattanooga, TN United States
 
Re:Mueller vs. Edward R. Morrow
Wednesday, January 02 2019 @ 01:56 PM CST


Unfortunately I do know what his one-and-only true target is – everyone does and always has – and that is precisely why I compared him directly to Joseph McCarthy in post #1 of this thread.   When I look at this entire thing and at the methods used (“Have you no decency?”), he has no credibility with me.   And, again, I am not alone in any of my opinions.   There are many, many people out there who do not want the US Justice system being used in this manner, and who harbor no illusions.



Example: https://www.npr.org/2019/01/01/678332805/heres-what-could-be-ahead-in-the-russia-investigations-in-2019

Do you find anything in this 2019 NPR article which asks what Mueller has found, in 595 days and counting, about Russia?   One cannot escape the observation that Moscow is never mentioned ... thus, the original charter of this “investigation” has faded into political irrelevancy.   The only matter being discussed is who else ... connected somehow to Donald Trump ... might be gathered into an ever-widening net, and whether those who have already been snared might somehow turn “state’s witness.”

So that ... so that ... “Madame Presidente!   We love yoooou!”

Joseph McCarthy used the United States Senate to do “exactly the same thing, in effect though of course not in details.”   (He even fingered Russia(ns), and never once produced any.)

After 595 days in the limelight at, it would appear, somewhere around $100,000 per day in taxpayer expense, even National Public Radio is no longer pretending that this entire thing is anything other than exactly what it is – and, always has been.

But – in the actual halls of justice – other opposition is closing in.   Joseph McCarthy was never stopped on his own terms:   instead, he was fired censured when no one could stand (nor, rationalize) what he was doing anymore.