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bud
Forum Full Member


Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 3868
Location: Brooklyn, NY USA
 
Re:Mueller vs. Edward R. Morrow
Saturday, December 15 2018 @ 11:39 AM CST

Quote by: MikeRobinson
There is nothing subtle nor difficult to understand here.   But a lot of people’s lives are going to be wiped-out by the fallout, including a retired Army General who served his country faithfully and well.   Millions of dollars in public money will have been squandered ruining people’s lives in a mockery of judicial process and official investigation.


Um, respectfully, no.

A number of criminals are going to jail for actual crimes (tax fraud, bank fraud, campaign finance abuses, lying to the feds etc.). Not that many people, actually. Hyperbole does not support your case.
Flynn served his country in the military, but attempted to embellish his political career on the heels of that service, though not always legally. Is his life wiped-out, ruined, destroyed as a result? Ask him in ten years after the book deal and punditry paychecks roll in.

Manafort's life is ruined, but he got caught on a life of criminal activity. Or do you disagree?

Cohen is getting what he deserves (or less) for a laundry list of crimes.

The money recouped from the forfeiture of property by Manafort offsets the costs of the investigation. However, the billions of dollars being added to the deficit by the new tax law burden the public with a much greater load. Sorry - politics creeps in as it always does, because it effects the lives of millions, not just a handful.


it's all too much
MikeRobinson
Forum Full Member


Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 926
Location: Chattanooga, TN United States
 
Re:Mueller vs. Edward R. Morrow
Sunday, December 16 2018 @ 12:54 PM CST

Bud, you don't spend tens of millions of dollars for two years on something like this unless you have O-N-E, and only one, “actual target” in mind.   No one has any illusions about this.   Anyone that you throw under the bus along the way – whether they did anything meaningfully wrong or not – is merely collateral damage.

The sponsors will of course make their play, but the entire thing is already fatally losing steam.   It is going to wind up as millions of dollars squandered writing a report that no one will read.   The man who made himself a household name with “Yer Fired!” has by now several times proved himself to be politically astute by those whom he didn’t.   Mueller is well on his way to finally hanging himself and disappearing into the same gloom reserved for the likes of Monica Lewinsky – in the end, “just another clueless f*cker.”
magnatone
Forum Full Member


Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 4473
Location: N/A
 
Re:Mueller vs. Edward R. Morrow
Sunday, December 16 2018 @ 01:36 PM CST

Quote by: MikeRobinson
Mueller is well on his way to finally hanging himself and disappearing into the same gloom reserved for the likes of Monica Lewinsky – in the end, “just another clueless f*cker.”



keep up Mike:


my most recent song: "First Light (solo piano)"
chikoppi
Forum Full Member


Registered: 04/02/04
Posts: 2057
Location: N/A
 
Re:Mueller vs. Edward R. Morrow
Sunday, December 16 2018 @ 04:34 PM CST

Quote by: MikeRobinson
Bud, you don't spend tens of millions of dollars for two years on something like this unless you have O-N-E, and only one, “actual target” in mind.   No one has any illusions about this.   Anyone that you throw under the bus along the way – whether they did anything meaningfully wrong or not – is merely collateral damage.

The sponsors will of course make their play, but the entire thing is already fatally losing steam.   It is going to wind up as millions of dollars squandered writing a report that no one will read.   The man who made himself a household name with “Yer Fired!” has by now several times proved himself to be politically astute by those whom he didn’t.   Mueller is well on his way to finally hanging himself and disappearing into the same gloom reserved for the likes of Monica Lewinsky – in the end, “just another clueless f*cker.”



Again, the investigation is operating at a net profit. Asset seizures from Manafort alone range from $42-46MM, whereas the cost of the investigation to date is $26MM.

All available evidence indicates the investigation will earn a profit for taxpayers.

As for divining what "the American People" want, it's worth noting that the Democats won in the midterm cycle by a popular margin of 8.6%, which is the largest popular margin during midterms in more than 30 years and 10.6% greater margin than DJT received in 2016. It seems the people very much want oversight with respect to this administration.

For more specificity, here are figures from the most recent (Dec. 9-11) poll from Fox News (chosen to avoid claims of "liberal bias").

By a 19-point margin, 56-37 percent, voters approve of his investigation of the Trump campaign’s ties with Russia, and more voters think the investigation will ultimately strengthen the country (42 percent) than weaken it (34 percent).

A record 48 percent think the Trump campaign coordinated with the Russians in 2016. Thirty-seven percent believe there was no coordination, down 15 points from a high of 52 percent in June 2017.

Of those pleading guilty in the Mueller investigation so far, 44 percent of voters say they committed serious crimes, compared to 21 percent saying minor crimes and 11 percent saying no crimes at all.

Lastly, the aim of the investigation is not impeachment, but to determine the full extent of Russian interference. The mandate from the appointment order...

"A full and thorough investigation of then Russian Government's efforts to interfere in the 2016 Presidential Election, including:

i) any links and/or coordination between the Russian Government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump; and
ii) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation; and
iii) any other matters within the scope of 28 C.F.R. 600.4a"

Mueller is doing the job he was assigned. He's a highly respected public servant who has performed with distinction in senior appointments under the past four Presidents.

“Ya, that idea is dildos.” Skwisgaar Skwigelf
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MikeRobinson
Forum Full Member


Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 926
Location: Chattanooga, TN United States
 
Re:Mueller vs. Edward R. Morrow
Monday, December 17 2018 @ 09:00 AM CST

A Congressional investigation is not supposed to run at a “profit” nor a loss.   And as for the “poll results,” simply consider what Mark Twain said about damned lies and statistics – a poll can be anything you want it to be.   Congressional investigations are not to be held because of poll numbers, nor for political advantage nor purpose.

I’m sorry, Chikoppi, and of course with great respect for you, but, “there can be no illusions” about this entire thing.   When Mr. Trump won the election, there was an immediate stampede that simply asked, “how can we get rid of this guy?”   (Whether or not they were still clutching their Madame Presidente™ wine-glasses and coffee cups while downing disbelieving shots of bourbon.)
  1. First and most immediately they wondered if they could simply do “Bush v. Gore, Act II.”
  2. Then they dreamed of “Jefferson Electors” who would “do the right thing,” only to be confronted that no electors abandoned DT while one elector did abandon HC.
  3. The third fantasy was to somehow get the Supreme Court to declare that the election results were manipulated – by “Russians,” of course – and therefore illegitimate, and to rule ex post facto that Madame really won after all.
  4. The final fantasy is to somehow tie DT to a felony that occurred during his tenure in office, or to persuade the world that he is mentally unfit for office, or that he only won because of a crime that he knowingly committed (see #3).
  5. And, finally, “2019 is the beginning of the 2020 re-election campaign season!”
The fundamental mistake that they made with regard to point #3 is a familiar one – they latched onto a tired old international booger-straw-man which is half a planet away, a faceless-evil very familiar to them as children of the 50’s who remember “Duck and Cover” drills but quite unknown to a generation that blogs constantly with people all over the world and who might well not know what The Cold War is.

“Election interference,” if it happened, is far more likely to have originated in the house across the street from you, and, last month, it did.

For instance, rampant election fraud did happen in my US State of Georgia, when a candidate for Governor was the Secretary of State and therefore in charge of the election process.   He did not resign until after the election was complete.   Millions of voter registrations “disappeared” from the rolls – including mine, but not my wife’s, even though both of us registered years ago at the same time and have voted before.   (And, mind you, we’re white!)   Schoolchildren successfully penetrated election hardware as an exercise.   Yes, had they asserted that the election had been tampered-with by Americans, their arguments might have been vaguely persuasive.   But it would have resulted in technical-process reforms, not Presidential conviction or expulsion, which is transparently the actual goal of this entire contretemps.

But – although DT is vile to some Democrats, he is not vile to the country.   What real people are now saying, however, is that they are damned-tired of divisiveness in the media and in political leadership – even off-and-on blathering about a “new Civil War” – when they do not feel divided, themselves.   That Members of Congress are expected to work together as a great big team no matter what color shirt(s) they choose to wear.   They don’t think that DT is criminal and don’t want a replay of what happened to Bill.   I think they don’t want to hear about it anymore.   I think that by now they just want Mueller to write his essay and bugger off.

But still, the damage is already done, to many people’s lives.   No, he is not an exact repetition of Joseph McCarthy, but I am flatly of the opinion that the essential offense against justice is the same.   And I find it reprehensible that Congress and DOJ have indulged in it.
chikoppi
Forum Full Member


Registered: 04/02/04
Posts: 2057
Location: N/A
 
Re:Mueller vs. Edward R. Morrow
Monday, December 17 2018 @ 11:03 AM CST

I'm sorry Mike, but demonstrable facts contradict your assertions.

First, we can agree about the "cost" of the investigation. If you no longer think that is a relevant issue, so much the better.

It is you who has been asserting what you believe to be the beliefs of the majority of voters. Unless every single poll is false, including those conducted and communicated by a decidedly pro-DJT news organization, those assertions are not accurate.

Further, the midterm election results are not speculative or opinion-oriented. These are objective facts. A historically wide margin of voters cast their ballot for the opposition party this midterm cycle.

Anecdotal supposition does not supersede the summation drawn from multiple lines of objective data. I'm quite sure my anecdotal experience with popular opinion here in Chicago is the nearly the polar opposite of yours. I am aware that my personal experience is not representative of the nation as a whole. Neither is yours. Personal experience is inherently biased and not useful in determining the overall tenor of the electorate, which is why we must rely on objective data.

Your assertion that the purpose of the investigation is to impeach the President is structurally untrue. The investigation CAN'T accomplish that end. Nor is the President the "target" of the investigation, as is plainly stated in the appointment order.

The investigation has already uncovered crimes and undisclosed contacts by senior members of the campaign staff. If absolutely no evidence of wrongdoing by the President himself is found the success of the investigation will not have been mitigated in the least.

The mandate and scope of the investigation is clear and based not merely on credible evidence, but evidence substantiated by every intelligence organization in the western hemisphere. You may not like the potential implications, but the investigation itself is sound, warranted, and endorsed by a plurality of the electorate.

Maria Butina is a Russian operative who communicated with a Russian handler with whom she discussed how to best compromise and leverage American intelligence targets. She infiltrated the NRA, a much more well established and politically savvy organization than the Trump campaign. The campaign employed many individuals with no experience in national politics and there is incontrovertible evidence that the Russians initiated communication and made overtures at multiple times, including to multiple individuals who were potentially vulnerable due to offshore financial ties. Several of these individuals lied about those contacts.

I would like to know the full extent of these operations. I don't have to so much as consider my personal assessment of DJT to reach that conclusion.

Your addendum comments about election fraud warrant further reflection. One party has been beating the drum for increased restrictions on access to the ballot box for some time, citing a proliferation voter fraud despite the stubborn absence of any actual evidence. That same party has consistently worked a coordinated effort at state level to oppose automatic voter registration, close polling stations in minority neighborhoods, deny student voting, impose onerous ID requirements, and rescind early voting opportunities. There were multiple incidents of election fraud attributable to state campaigns this midterm election, not just in Georgia. All those campaigns were on the same party ticket.


“Ya, that idea is dildos.” Skwisgaar Skwigelf
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MikeRobinson
Forum Full Member


Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 926
Location: Chattanooga, TN United States
 
Re:Mueller vs. Edward R. Morrow
Monday, December 17 2018 @ 12:49 PM CST

Yes, yes, I know about “the popular vote,” and that’s why we have an Electoral College ... the same system that is used for the House of Representatives, and for the same reason.   We have a two-tiered voting system in both instances.
As shown e.g. in this web-page, population differences between the original 13 Colonies were a major impediment to the hoped-for ratification of the Constitution:   four of them could have overwhelmed the popular vote of the other nine, and the other nine knew it, and this is part of what had led to the initial adoption of the (then quickly failing ...) Articles of Confederation.   (And, many have said, to the American Civil War nearly a century later.)

Well, today, four of them can [essentially ...] overwhelm the popular vote of the other forty-six.   (One of them, California, can very nearly do it single-handedly.)   Although the deliberations were kept secret, we know that the Founders realized that their document would never be accepted without a two-tier treatment of the Electorate side of things.   In 2016, why should I in the State of Georgia even bother to go to the polls, knowing that “California, New York, Texas and Florida” could decide it all, and then why would I have any interest in what “their President, not mine,” decided to do?   (Heaven help if you live in Wyoming ...)

Instead:   the States (and now, the District of Columbia) elect the President.   The influence of population “impedance mismatch” is effectively countered by the presence of the two tiers.   Even the little(st) guy gets a guaranteed say.

We could go on forever, I suppose, with “ everywhere,” and it frankly annoys me to see “election tampering” mashed with it, as though tampering could not occur with any other far-more-credible explanation.   Of course one would be a fool not to recognize that countries do not regularly seek to influence the internal affairs of other nations.   (USA, unfortunately, is a serious offender, but it can also be said that this is what nations do to each other.)   But I will calmly maintain my position – and you may and do disagree, as you have stated – that this entire affair has only O-N-E true target, and that everyone on Planet Earth knows exactly who it is.   And I have had enough of it.

Furthermore – it is not a crime to advertise.   (Every single election season I am bombarded by various ways of influencing my opinion and my vote offered by people who are, I think, not entirely up-and-up about who is actually sending the message.)   Whereas, “stuffing a ballot box,” by any means whatsoever ... and lately we have invented brand-new ways to do it ... is a felony.

I wish that the Democrats had focused on “election tampering, no matter what or where,” because this is an obvious and growing problem.   As I said, it happened to me through manipulation of voting rolls.   I experienced it, and well do I know that the “provisional ballot” which I was forced to cast probably did not get counted.

Let’s face it:   “if a ballot box can be ‘stuffed’ it will be.”   Plenty of dead people vote in elections, and plenty of homeless camps have been bussed from one polling place to the next on the promise of a hot meal and a warm place to sleep that night.   This happened hundreds of years ago, it happens even today, and today it needs criminal investigation and reform.

But this would not have met their political objective.   They picked Russians, and I continue to assert that their true target is not and never truly was “election interference.”   You continue to disagree, as is your right.   Well, I think that not only have they been “wasting real bullets on clay pigeons,” but also that they have been ignoring a real right-here problem by equating it to a politically convenient phantom far away ... doing so for unvarnished political purposes.   (Dammit, they wasted my money twice!!)

Chikoppi, I think we have plumbed our respective viewpoints very well, now, and I want to say that I have enjoyed(!) the conversation, despite a few initial sparks which were swiftly snuffed-out.   But I have had more than my fill of Mr. Mueller and feel that he has accomplished absolutely nothing of value.   I maintain that he has ruined many people’s lives as collateral damage, and I will never forgive him – nor Congress, nor DOJ – for that.   In that respect, I can extract no difference between his tactics and “McCarthyism.”   I am repelled to see it happening, in my country, before my eyes.
chikoppi
Forum Full Member


Registered: 04/02/04
Posts: 2057
Location: N/A
 
Re:Mueller vs. Edward R. Morrow
Monday, December 17 2018 @ 01:25 PM CST

I think you are laboring under a false dichotomy.

People can dislike this President, even hoping for evidence of personal wrongdoing, AND the investigation can be legitimately directed and warranted, irrespective of the President's personal actions. These are independent truth claims which you seem to be regularly conflating.

The evidence of Russian intelligence operations is clear. It isn't merely "advertising." They laundered money and circumvented our election laws, selectively targeting American citizens in a massive disinformation campaign. Russian intelligence successfully contacted and actively sought to develop and leverage high-profile human assets. They also successfully hacked private systems of American political candidates and political organizations. They accessed voter rolls and tried on multiple occasions to infiltrate voting systems.

Manafort is a crook, deep in the pocket of Russian oligarchs maneuvering for Putin, who, despite being in debt to some very dangerous people, offered to serve as Trump's Campaign Chairman FOR FREE. After leaving the Trump campaign he also received Russian-backed "loans" (with no repayment schedule) exceeding tens of millions of $US. What did he get paid for? Who else was contacted? What else did the Russians accomplish?

It would be a crime of supreme negligence to NOT conduct an extensively thorough investigation.

“Ya, that idea is dildos.” Skwisgaar Skwigelf
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MikeRobinson
Forum Full Member


Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 926
Location: Chattanooga, TN United States
 
Re:Mueller vs. Edward R. Morrow
Monday, December 17 2018 @ 01:58 PM CST

Okay, Chikoppi, I shall graciously yield the debate-floor on these points after giving you the final word.

I will, meanwhile, be wondering “should I laugh or cry?” when it comes to the latest twist – which somehow seems to be taken deadly seriously by people who have been wet-dreaming about the prospect of “Watergate 2.0” over the last two-and-a-half years – the matter of a couple of ex-Playboy Bunnies.

“One of the richest men on Planet Earth,” and (no doubt) “yet another couple of females who are trying to extort him into a compromising position by suggesting in public that they had maneuvered his into just such a position.”   As though such a thing (gasp!! horrors!!) had never occurred to any other man who found himself in a position of wealth or power.   As though a lawyer could commit some terrible offense by advising the rich man to (once again ...) hand the girls some cash to make them go away.   As though this somehow amounted to “a felony violation of campaign finance laws.”

Clue ’ya:   DT has so fuckin’ much money that he really doesn’t and didn’t need “campaign finance.”   He paid the girls off using his own abundant cash.   He is several thousand times wealthier than anybody else in Washington, DC.

(I wonder if these ladies are foolish enough to follow Monica into the spotlight?   They promised her a movie, too ...)

Trouble is – when you are “The Swamp™” that in 2016 the American electorate voted their determination to drain, your determination to hold on to power, “at whatever cost,” blinds you.   You find yourself surrounded by people who tell you what you want to hear, and by people who are all-too-happy to tell you exactly what you want to hear if you’ll pay them tens of millions of dollars.   Mueller’s well-heeled gang of lawyers have been playing the Democratic Party for suckers, and they’ve never yet caught on.
 
Ed Hannifin
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Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 3525
Location: , MA USA
 
Re:Mueller vs. Edward R. Morrow
Monday, December 17 2018 @ 04:04 PM CST

Quote by: MikeRobinson
Okay, Chikoppi, I shall graciously yield the debate-floor on these points after giving you the final word.




I'll believe it when I see it. As many times as you have claimed you will bow out of your constantly-moving-goalpost arguments in these threads, I've never seen you successfully accomplish it, much less graciously.

All I perceive is lots of ongoing talking down and mansplaining, with poor punctuation, with little reason and close to zero verifiable evidence.

Thanks Chikoppi and bud for relentlessly keeping things factual. And polite.

"We have to remember...when it's surrender that's called for, it's not surrender of your brains. It's surrender of your ego. It's a different thing." --Bruce Cockburn