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J.A.Stewart
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Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 4656
Location: Somewhere In Time, USA
 
YouTube Copyright Chaos
Tuesday, April 02 2019 @ 10:33 PM CDT

It sounds like YouTube could use the services of Solomon as a consultant — or maybe just someone with a bit of common sense...


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mike_d
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Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 313
Location: , of vocation is where I seem to be most of the time
 
Re:YouTube Copyright Chaos
Wednesday, April 03 2019 @ 06:57 AM CDT

That’s a great video- thanks for sharing it.

From a different angle I know this all too well. Our company sales videos have been ripped and reposted on other YouTube channels. I’ve been the one filling out their copyright forms to get the offending videos removed. Blatant “copy/paste” instances have been removed swiftly by YouTube. Other videos have small clips or stills from our sales material. Those are much more difficult and require our attorney to step in.

I won’t go into detail about how my intellectual property (patented material) has been stolen by the Chinese. The ideas I put in long hours to develop and design have been stolen……. Not much different than somebody getting their song ripped off, just harder to enforce (when dealing with China and limited monetary resources anyway)

If I can't fix it, it ain't broke
J.A.Stewart
Forum Full Member


Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 4656
Location: Somewhere In Time, USA
 
Re:YouTube Copyright Chaos
Wednesday, April 03 2019 @ 10:43 AM CDT

Quote by: mike_d
That’s a great video- thanks for sharing it.

From a different angle I know this all too well...



Indeed, there are issues coming into play from ALL angles and some complaints, like the one you expressed, are legitimate. There are plenty of instances of *Cut-and-Paste* pirates on YouTube who successfully profit from the creative work of others by horizontally flipping the video and altering the soundtrack to avoid detection by YT's "policing" algorithms.

Unless the original creator becomes aware of the pirated version — and reports it — the pirated version will continue to run, unabated.

Meantime, this recent effort by large media organizations to stunt what in most cases should be considered Fair Use under the Copyright Law, is both petty and alarming. These companies are leveraging their size and economic clout to take advantage of smaller creators via the practical limitations of all social media platforms — sheer volume of content vs. insufficient numbers of dedicated personnel to competently deal with it.

With hundreds of hours of video being uploaded to YT each minute, how can they possibly police nuanced Fair Use videos with an algorithm? They can't. So what happens? The big media companies register a complaint and the current YT policy apparently transfers any monetary earnings of the small creator's video to the media company — without first examining the question of Fair Use. This seems patently unfair and draconian.

Google can well-afford to do better than this. And they should.

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mike_d
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Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 313
Location: , of vocation is where I seem to be most of the time
 
Re:YouTube Copyright Chaos
Wednesday, April 03 2019 @ 12:03 PM CDT

Quote by: J.A.Stewart
Quote by: mike_d
That’s a great video- thanks for sharing it.

From a different angle I know this all too well...




Meantime, this recent effort by large media organizations to stunt what in most cases should be considered Fair Use under the Copyright Law, is both petty and alarming. These companies are leveraging their size and economic clout to take advantage of smaller creators via the practical limitations of all social media platforms — sheer volume of content vs. insufficient numbers of dedicated personnel to competently deal with it.





I'll admit after seeing his track being ripped off by someone in (potentially) another country, I got pretty angry because of what I'm dealing with.

I certainly agree they are being too strict with "Fair Use" rules after watching the examples in the video. Another negative effect is that artists might then miss out on free publicity from legitimate Youtube channels such as the one you shared. If I remember correctly they mentioned a "Whitelist" option for educational purposes. - if YouTube would do it. That seems like a reasonable option to me.

If I can't fix it, it ain't broke
MikeRobinson
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Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 957
Location: Chattanooga, TN United States
 
Re:YouTube Copyright Chaos
Wednesday, April 03 2019 @ 02:13 PM CDT

Of course the Copyright Office does talk extensively about Fair Use, such as here:

https://www.copyright.gov/fair-use/more-info.html

... they have even created an on-line, searchable “Fair Use Index.”

But the situation is made more complicated because companies like YouTube really can’t afford the legal risk of being anything less than draconian.   They are an obviously commercial enterprise, and the (advertisement supported) videos that they provide to “millions of subscribers to a channel” are also Obviously Commercial.  
Is it actually “fair use” to include a piece of a song in a public video that you are obviously making money from?   Even when your purpose is educational and your conscience is clean?   I’m Not A Lawyer™ ... but I damn sure retain one.   (No, I’m not going to spend the money to ask.   So I don’t know what that answer is and I will not speculate.)
If you buy a book that contains music lessons referencing existing songs, somewhere in that book you will always find a copyright notice for every one, and Used By Permission.   Somebody cleared every song in that work before it was included, and somewhere in a filing cabinet there is the “due diligence” paperwork to prove it, waiting to become Exhibit A.   The book is also copyrighted.

Further complicating the issue is the area of something being erroneously perceived as “in the public domain,” and the Doctrine of Laches – the “protect it always or lose it forever” legal thorn which holds copyright managers and PRO’s (Performing Rights Organization’s) feet to the fire.   There are raging legal risks at every turn.

Every party here has a legitimate point, every one faces their own set of legal risks and obligations, and they all have a business need to do something different (that doesn’t cost much money) while keeping everyone’s legal noses clean.   Maybe what we really need here is something – put forth by the PROs themselves on behalf of their copyright-owning artists and blessed by their attorneys – which establishes some actual and manageable system that will provide for clearances, and proper copyright notice, of material that is being used in “Fair Use like” situations such as genuinely-educational videos that earn money.   The Sony Music Groups of the world and the BMI’s and the ASCAP’s of the world are only doing their job, and by law(!) they have no choice.   (Laches ...)   But we really don’t now have an equitable and manageable way to do it.   Has anyone in those organizations (and in their legal teams) discussed what might be the best compromise?

Finally – this video creator himself ought to know the very critical need for notice, yet his own video does not seem to carry a visible copyright notice to meet that vital legal requirement.   Does the video in which his purloined original “lick” first appeared, contain a copyright notice?   Did he actually file paperwork to register his copyright on what is obviously an original composition?   Is he registered with a PRO?   Why did he not register the lick and post it to a PRO scanner so that the unlicensed use of his composition could have been detected immediately, given that actually occurred at least once that he is aware of and maybe many more times that he might never become aware of?   He lost money he didn’t even realize he was entitled to earn, and could have earned with the help of a PRO.   He is an aggrieved party in more ways than one!   But, “P’s and Q’s” mean everything(!) in this business.
J.A.Stewart
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Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 4656
Location: Somewhere In Time, USA
 
Re:YouTube Copyright Chaos
Thursday, April 04 2019 @ 04:45 PM CDT

Quote by: MikeRobinson
.... But the situation is made more complicated because companies like YouTube really can’t afford the legal risk of being anything less than draconian. ...



Although I can agree with some of your later remarks that suggest a rational compromise between all concerned parties, I do NOT agree that there are no possible options other than draconian ones.

For example, here is a useful video that explains the mechanism that currently exists on YouTube to handle actual covers of copyrighted music. It came as a revelation to me and perhaps it will be of interest to others here...


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MikeRobinson
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Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 957
Location: Chattanooga, TN United States
 
Re:YouTube Copyright Chaos
Thursday, April 04 2019 @ 09:02 PM CDT

Well . . . unfortunately, this all-too-appaealing video ... runs smack-dab into the very same legal issue that – for example, so far has kept “The Coal Miner’s Daughter” from receiving one measly cent from any commercial use of that song ... except from the physical(!) sale of any piece of vinyl or magnetic tape upon which a physical embodiment upon a recording upon which she sang verifiably occurred.

(Unless she physically performs a concert, to which verifiable tickets have actually been sold.   “Gray issues” such as ... you know ... television broadcasts or radio ... are, you know, “gray.” )

Heh heh ...

“Mechanicals,” for far too long, were the legal escape-valve by which generations of unscrupulous lawyers deprived – and, still deprive – earnest artists such as Loretta Lynn of their rightful proceeds.   The registered songwriters continue to reap millions, while the actual writers of the songs today are paid only if someone actually still buys a disc of vinyl, or an eight-track tape.   That is to say, a mechanical embodiment of their creative work. 

(Let the record show, also, that Loretta lost her appeal.)

Today, we technically receive royalties from both sources.   Every two or three years, the “mechanicals” manage to finally rise above the $50.00 floor.   The “songwriter” proceeds, meanwhile ... well ...

“An X-second segment of the song was overheard at a shopping mall in Boise, Idaho.” Ka-ching!   “A movie that was exhibited 385,733 times used a 9-second slice of this.”   You get the idea.   These are the juicy tidbits that songwriters get.   The rest is ... well ... nothing at all.
J.A.Stewart
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Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 4656
Location: Somewhere In Time, USA
 
Re:YouTube Copyright Chaos
Monday, April 08 2019 @ 10:16 AM CDT

Quote by: MikeRobinson
Well . . . unfortunately, this all-too-appaealing video ... runs smack-dab into the very same legal issue that – for example, so far has kept “The Coal Miner’s Daughter” from receiving one measly cent from any commercial use of that song ... except from the physical(!) sale of any piece of vinyl or magnetic tape upon which a physical embodiment upon a recording upon which she sang verifiably occurred....



The various inequities that seem to exist in the music business are matters for a separate and much broader discussion, but not for this one.

No, this one seems particularly petty and blatantly focused on attacking the principle of Fair Use. It is a presumptive interdiction that impedes and harms YT content creators and that perhaps may even violate their First Amendment rights.

YT's acquiescence in this matter is both disappointing and troubling because it is the thousands (millions?) of hours of content these amateur creators provided that helped build and sustain this platform.

I believe this maneuver has *Boomerang* written all over it and that unless YT develops a more equitable policy to deal with this matter they, as well as the media companies that instigated this situation, are going to be on the receiving end of that boomerang. Wink

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MikeRobinson
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Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 957
Location: Chattanooga, TN United States
 
Re:YouTube Copyright Chaos
Tuesday, April 09 2019 @ 10:57 PM CDT

J. A., I daresay that a very big problem here just might be that “a suitable legal framework for this situation does not yet exist.”

The “fair use” provisions that are right now on the books were probably written when fair uses probably were academic.   The laws quite probably never considered any situation where “commercial (for profit) use” wasn’t(!) “publishing.”

Until the law is once again changed to conform to the most-recent version of reality, companies like YT are quite likely to continue to be caught in the middle.
 
J.A.Stewart
Forum Full Member


Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 4656
Location: Somewhere In Time, USA
 
Re:YouTube Copyright Chaos
Saturday, April 13 2019 @ 01:46 PM CDT

Quote by: MikeRobinson
J. A., I daresay that a very big problem here just might be that “a suitable legal framework for this situation does not yet exist.”

The “fair use” provisions that are right now on the books were probably written when fair uses probably were academic.   The laws quite probably never considered any situation where “commercial (for profit) use” wasn’t(!) “publishing.”

Until the law is once again changed to conform to the most-recent version of reality, companies like YT are quite likely to continue to be caught in the middle.



Yes, I believe the media companies are taking advantage of a breach in the law that needs to be revisited to equitably accommodate ALL sides of this situation. Yet I fail to see anything in the law that requires YT to presumptively transfer the affected content creators' monetized earnings to the media claimant based on an alleged infringement.

Here is a relevant section of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act (DMCA) that appears to deal with Copyright Infringement claims:

Title II: Online Copyright Infringement Liability Limitation Act
DMCA Title II, the Online Copyright Infringement Liability Limitation Act ("OCILLA"), creates a safe harbor for online service providers (OSPs, including ISPs) against copyright infringement liability, provided they meet specific requirements.[4
OSPs must adhere to and qualify for certain prescribed safe harbor guidelines and promptly block access to alleged infringing material (or remove such material from their systems) when they receive notification of an infringement claim from a copyright holder or the copyright holder's agent. OCILLA also includes a counternotification provision that offers OSPs a safe harbor from liability to their users when users claim that the material in question is not, in fact, infringing. OCILLA also facilitates issuing of subpoenas against OSPs to provide their users' identity.


So while it would seem appropriate for YT to either block or remove videos, I don't see anything that would require them to hand over the content creators' monetized earnings to the claimant media company, based on an alleged infringement.

It seems to me that to receive a monetary award, each instance would have to be adjudicated in the courts, which handle such claims on a case-by-case basis. What YT is doing seems to violate the presumption of "innocent until proved guilty."

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