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magnatone
Forum Full Member


Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 4436
Location: N/A
 
Re:From Russia with Love
Wednesday, December 13 2017 @ 04:58 PM CST

Quote by: MikeRobinson

“Interfering with your elections,” to me, means “causing the reported and accepted vote to be different from what votes were actually cast



maybe you should consider broadening your understanding a bit

my most recent song: "First Light (solo piano)"
MikeRobinson
Forum Full Member


Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 783
Location: Chattanooga, TN United States
 
Re:From Russia with Love
Wednesday, December 13 2017 @ 05:13 PM CST

Quote by: chikoppi
Out of curiosity, do you think you would feel the same if, say, China had covertly spread lies about Donald Trump, resulting in a win for Hillary Clinton? What if China does exactly that during the next election and Trump loses by a narrow margin? Honky-dory?

Do you think future political candidates should invite foreign powers to engage in disinformation campaigns against the American public on their behalf?


Chikoppi, I don’t think that anyone(!) has an exclusive on “spreading lies about a political candidate!”   (And, I’m also not sure how it is even possible to spread a lie “covertly.”   What good is that?)

To my way of thinking, “today, we live in an international world, thanks to the Internet.”   People who seek “news” can get it from a variety of international sources, and they do.   American People who are about to vote are deluged (if they choose to be ...) with things that seek to change that vote.   Those deluges could come from any source – or, any Government:   Russia, China, Lithuania, or ... America.

“Future political candidates” should be fully prepared for the present-day telecommunications reality that “the world is now connected.”   Of course people in foreign countries have opinions about what is happening in the elections of other countries, and, given that they can, now, “communicate directly(!) with” the people in those countries, why on earth would you not expect them to do so?   Are the only “legitimate stakeholders” in upcoming elections in any country, somehow confined only to that country?  

“Most certainly not!” ... and especially(!) if the country that you are speaking of is the USA.   (Or China.   Or Russia.)

When Vladimir Putin himself goes through the election process, do we expect them to “cry foul” if Russian voters encounter something from CNN?   Or, if CNN decides to put out some kind of “blast” that is directed at them?

This is the political reality today.   And I fully expect that real-world voters already know it.   (They weren’t born yesterday™ ...)

Chikoppi, I think that voters everywhere fully understand the factors that might seek to “deluge them” today, and I really do believe that, when they go to the polls, they are going to exercise their single most-important civil duty soberly.   Just as you and I did.

I know damned well what a privilege it means “to vote in the United States of America,” and I am extremely aware – as you are, and as all of us are – of exactly what it means.   I will presume that every single one of “our fellow Voters” feels, and does, the same.   Therefore, regardless of which candidate wins or loses, I would never be so crass as to blame it on “foreign influence.”

To my way of thinking, that notion utterly demeans ... you ... and me.   To my way of thinking, this is saying that ... we(!) ... are Pawns.   “So, are we?”   Didn’t think so...   Case Closed.

To my way of thinking, this entire assertion strives to make a mockery of The American Voter.   To imply that “an international state, far away,” could succeed in somehow replacing the entire decision-making process that a voter goes through before he walks into that booth ... and that said voter is perfectly willing to let that happen.    To be a Puppet, at the end of a ten-thousand mile long String.   “Poppycock!!”
MikeRobinson
Forum Full Member


Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 783
Location: Chattanooga, TN United States
 
Re:From Russia with Love
Wednesday, December 13 2017 @ 05:37 PM CST

Chikoppi (et al ...) something else that we all maybe need to “smoke over” is the extremely limited single(!) source of information that all of these “omniscient (sic ...) media outlets” actually have, other than their corporate sponsors:   the “(telephone) opinion poll,” or maybe the “exit poll.”

This source of information (sic ...) has an implicit bias, since it reduces all of us to groups.   “Red Fish, Blue Fish,” (of course), but also other stereotypes such as ... “Evangelical,” “Anyone – automatically presumed to be a banjo-player – south of the Mason-Dixon Line” ... And So On.™

So – are you “a group?”   Did you vote for because insert_nation_here> told us to?   Were you, when you cast your vote, nothing more and nothing less than a puppet on their (diabolical) string?

“Yeah, me neither.”

So, “while all of these stories swirl around us,” let’s all just keep that in mind.   Let’s all just keep our heads on our shoulders, and trust our fellow (wo)man voters.
chikoppi
Forum Full Member


Registered: 04/02/04
Posts: 2009
Location: N/A
 
Re:From Russia with Love
Wednesday, December 13 2017 @ 05:38 PM CST

Got it.

So when China sets some portion of its 1.3B people to work impersonating American citizens on social media, creating sham "news" sites, and spreading deceptive news stories or outright lies about Trump you'll be totally cool with it. Even as his opponent is publicly calling for China to intervene on his or her behalf. Even should Trump lose by a narrow margin to China's favored candidate.

Cool. That seems like an intelligent way to respect the integrity of the democratic process.


“Ya, that idea is dildos.” Skwisgaar Skwigelf
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MikeRobinson
Forum Full Member


Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 783
Location: Chattanooga, TN United States
 
Re:From Russia with Love
Wednesday, December 13 2017 @ 05:51 PM CST

Quote by: chikoppi
Got it.

So when China sets some portion of its 1.3B people to work impersonating American citizens on social media, creating sham "news" sites, and spreading deceptive news stories or outright lies about Trump you'll be totally cool with it. Even as his opponent is publicly calling for China to intervene on his or her behalf. Even should Trump lose by a narrow margin to China's favored candidate.

Cool. That seems like an intelligent way to respect the integrity of the democratic process.


Even though “social media,” and the Internet in general, is of course an altogether-new intrusion introduction into the (now ...) world-wide political process, I continue to maintain confidence in every one of the people, just like you and me, who will ultimately vote.   In fact I remain confident that we(!) will not be “snowballed,” and “thrown into any sort of diabolical trap” that has somehow been laid for us by some (evil) foreign state.

Like everyone else – and, I am sure, like you – I will walk into that voting-booth and carry out my most-cherished civic duty, once again, as best I can.   Trusting every single one of my fellow citizens to do likewise.

And ... “in the next American Presidential election, may the best (wo)man win!!”

I will expect the result of that election to have been in fact the result of a deliberative process, carried-out simultaneously by many millions of people just like me.   I will respect those results, and will not lay blame at the hands of any foreign state if I turn out to be surprised “WTF™?!?!”.
bud
Forum Full Member


Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 3845
Location: Brooklyn, NY USA
 
Re:From Russia with Love
Thursday, December 14 2017 @ 11:14 AM CST


nah

It's better to regret something you have done, than something you haven't done.
magnatone
Forum Full Member


Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 4436
Location: N/A
 
Re:From Russia with Love
Thursday, December 14 2017 @ 03:18 PM CST

Quote by: bud

nah



i feel your pain

my most recent song: "First Light (solo piano)"
Ed Hannifin
Forum Full Member


Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 3509
Location: , MA USA
 
Re:From Russia with Love
Saturday, December 16 2017 @ 10:43 AM CST

Quote by: bud

nah



I love the simple wisdom of your 'nah', Kevin...

"We have to remember...when it's surrender that's called for, it's not surrender of your brains. It's surrender of your ego. It's a different thing." --Bruce Cockburn
Ed Hannifin
Forum Full Member


Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 3509
Location: , MA USA
 
Re:From Russia with Love
Sunday, December 17 2017 @ 08:47 AM CST

Here's a very interesting piece on the history of The Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/nov/16/a-mission-for-journalism-in-a-time-of-crisis

I found this well written, enlightening and informative...

"We have to remember...when it's surrender that's called for, it's not surrender of your brains. It's surrender of your ego. It's a different thing." --Bruce Cockburn
 
J.A.Stewart
Forum Full Member


Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 4586
Location: Somewhere In Time, USA
 
Re:From Russia with Love
Sunday, December 17 2017 @ 07:41 PM CST

Quote by: Ed Hannifin
Here's a very interesting piece on the history of The Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/nov/16/a-mission-for-journalism-in-a-time-of-crisis

I found this well written, enlightening and informative...



Exhaustive and...exhausting, I fear. Few, I suspect, will brave a full read. As Machiavelli observed in The Prince, "Men in general judge more by what they see, rather than what they know. All men have eyes, few have the gift of penetration."

Sadly, that rare gift is the one that is most sorely needed in the current dizzying circumstances.

MY LATEST: A demo version of my Work-In-Progress DAILY GRIND